Posted by
Traci Martin on Thursday, October 02, 2008 12:34:11 PM
I have had the pleasure of debating today's issues with possibly one of the most ignorant people online.
It all started with a long email chain that was an ongoing debate of what is okay and not okay to talk about regarding Obama.
I am going to cut and past that transcript here so people can see the idiocy of some of Americans. It is sad that this is what we are faced with.
From S. Engram
You
know, I have been reading comments and hearing opinions from everyone
and everybody. So, I will make this short and sweet. It is a shame to
discuss a person's background to determine a person is African American
or some other culture. It is a shame to discuss someone who is
allready DEAD, but still conversing a situation what someone did or did
not do. What is wrong with ya'll!!!
The subject that should be discussing is what your thoughts and
opinions on the president nominees and what they are going to do for
THIS country in the next four years. Who cares about the other stuff.
End Quote
My response:
"As to the response by S. Engram regarding not speaking
about a person once they are dead, and not speaking about a persons
past because it is "Shameful" I must respectfully disagree.
I believe it is our duty to examine every aspect of the potential
candidates life, including his familial influences because this is who
has shaped the man and especially because Obama has so very little
track record to go on, we are actually FORCED to look back in order to
examine who he is.
Do you expect us to simply determine the appropriate candidate based on their proposals for the future? That is preposterous!
Bill Clinton said he would not raise taxes on the middle class. (after being elected it took him 5 days!)
No Tax Raises
Reverend Wright one of the most racist pastors in AMERICA today
married Obama, and baptized his kids. This is akin to having McCain
being Married by the KKK. Say what you like but when a man says GOD
DAMN AMERICA, GOD DAMN WHITE MEN they are the devil, that man is
EVIL. A person cannot decide to run for the presidency and then
because his view are so radical as to not be accepted by
mainstream, denounce the man that essentially guided him his WHOLE
ADULT LIFE. A persons foundation is what it is!
This is
unconscionable, an utter disgrace. This man is a
compulsive liar. His lies are so numerous, you cannot even come close
to compiling a list of lies by all the primary candidates combined to
match the sheer number of lies he has purported.
On Obama get a feeling for the Obama nation by watching Obama
change his words like he changes his socks. Disgusting. I swear if he
gets elected I will protest.
Obama Lies?
How sickening is this, at the end of this clip the one adviser
states that perhaps Obama will get through the Primary with this double
talk, but will not be able to fool us int eh General election. Sadly
the people cannot keep track of his lies. They are so numerous,
everyone gets so confused. He is so smooth, he makes a lie look like
butter. Obama makes slick Willy look like sand paper.
there is so much more.
Quote
From S. Engram;
Your
thoughts and opinions are you own, just like mine is. And since you
and everyone on this list is speaking out, so can I. If we want to
talk history fine then so be it. I am for neither McCain or Obama, for
I THINK they are both idiots who wants to sit on a throne called the
White House. If anyone has TIME to watch all those youtubes you
presented on here, then some of you must have more time on your hands
than I do, or maybe your days are longer than mine.
Since you have mention faith, there are some who need to get there
priorites straight. This goes for me also. The endtimes are here and
America is going down, no matter WHO is in office.
Oh, I RESPECTFULLY have to say, that I seen BOTH sides and heard
BOTH sides at the debate, and my conclusion, both are idiots. I think
I have all ready mention this.
End Quote
Reply From Traci Martin
Quote:
"Clearly
you care deeply about the state of America and have lost hope for our
future. Sadly you see both candidates as idiots. I am not sure if you
are aware of it but I am afraid that you are the only person calling
both candidates Idiots, so either you are brilliant and we are all dumb or you are a dumb and we are seeing the candidates as the
bright men that they are. Make no mistake, to be a liar one must not
be an idiot, one must only be foolish.
Quote "Since you have mention faith, there are some who need to
get there(sic) priorites (sic) straight. This goes for me also" I
assume you mean Obama and therefore I assume you then mean you attend
the church of rev. Wright as well?
I say this because as far as I can see there are no other faith issues on the table.
Furthermore if you consider the White House a "throne" I am
concerned you may be an ESL speaker, as it would technically be
impossible for a house to be a throne. I think an ESL speaker might
confuse that, (house vs throne easy mistake) as well as the concept of
monarchy (king) and democracy (President)
That being said I can only encourage you to keep up your comments
as this is great practice for your budding language skills and your
growing global understanding. Thank you for sharing your passionate
views!
I would ask you to reconsider your affiliation with the Reverends church though, as nothing productive comes from racism.
With much respect,
Traci Martin"
End Quote
From S. Engram
"I am very aware to what I say and do.
Quote: "Quote "Since you have mention faith, there are some who
need to get there(sic) priorites (sic) straight. This goes for me
also" I assume you mean Obama and therefore I assume you then mean you
attend the church of rev. Wright as well?" Then I can say that your
views are not much broader than mine, for I was not referring to
either. Then again you did ASSume.
The faith issue was put on the table concernng of Obama being
Muslim. If you did not know Muslim is a form of faith or religion if
you preferr.
The next time you want to call someone a racist, you better have
your facts straight. I am NOT a racist and you do not know me to name
me that. I have not call you any form of name and I would appreciate
if you do the same. "
From Richard
S. Engram, are you saying to subscribe the the church of
Reverend Wright? You calling yourself a racist? No one else called YOU
that only those who follow the preachings of Reverend Wright, and if
(as they say) the shoe fits, then it doesn't mean you get to marry the
prince...
Now there is another angle to all this - remember that we don't
know anything that does not come in some way, either directly or
indirectly from the media. Even http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/
these guys. Since we don't know anything that is direct, unless we were
their, it's all "bent" depending on where we get our news. We should
all recall our Critical Thinking and Rules of Rhetoric that come into
play heavily at this time in our four-year political cycle.
None of us want to repeat things that are hurtful or
without basis, and when the basis turns out to be wrong - we need to be
big enough to stand by our statements and then move on with the added
bonus of the experience.
From T. Avent
Related to the other questions, I would have a few also:
1) what is meant by the phrase "...End Times..."? What END is this? Is
"TIME" over with after that, and if so, what happens then? Is this one
of those "theo-apocalyptic" models where Jesus comes again, and
everything stops? What, then happens in "Heaven"? If there is no "time"
there can be no sense of oneself (in any culturally recognizable sense)
so it rather follows that there would be no perception of "reward" for
whatever self-sacrifice on this earthly plane had been offered up.
2) what is meant by "...America is going down..."? Down WHERE? Is this
a fire-and-brimstone speech? Please explain the place where America
goes. I gather from those who subscribe to theology like this, that
"America" is somehow inherently BLESSED by God, and that it will not go
"Down". Perhaps this person thinks otherwise? Why did we go to such
trouble to put religious slogans on our money (the one thing apparently
closest to our collective hearts)?
3) I generally share Traci's discomfort with the "Throne" model. It all
rather smacks of the classic confusion "God is King" and "King is God"
which was so prevalent during the years that the KJV was written. In no
means would "Jesus" have agreed with anything of the kind. He was
anti-status-quo and a perceived threat to all who held political power.
He held that divine right lay exclusively with God, not any King. The
term "King" was attributed to Jesus long after his death, and I do not
think he would
have approved of it, given his teachings while he lived.
From Traci Martin
To the Person using the email of S. Engram
It is fairly well established that when someone makes a statement
such as you made regarding faith, one that has no specifics, and is not
only broad but barely coherent, one must assume for the sake of
continuing the conversation that said person made such a statement in
response to the numerous points as were laid out in the previous email
message; the very message that you responded directly to. Nowhere in
that message was there the mention of Islam or of Osama being a
Muslim. I am very well schooled in Theology, and rest assured I do
know that Islam is a religion, but not a faith. As someone could
follow the principles of Islam without faith. Of course faith is
crucial to its success, but this is inherent in all religions, no?
Furthermore, you may be interested to know that a person who follows the
Islam religion is a Muslim. One cannot follow the Muslim religion, nor
can a person be an Islam. (they can be however, Islamic)
I also assure you my views are much broader than yours. I need not assume to know this. I need only to read your emails.
In closing, I never called you a racist, I simply said racism does
not lead to anything productive. Your application of my label racist to
you, does support the claim that at the very least you share my belief
that Reverend Wrights church is racist. (Yay ) However, you never did
dispute your affiliation with the church. I am sorry but I must ASSume
any member of that church follows the teachings and is therefore
racist. Your statement of not knowing somebody therefore not being
able to call them a racist is also incorrect. If I said I was a member
of the KKK would you ASSume I was a racist?
Don't be naive.
Traci Martin
Oh look I can sign my name
S.Engram
You stated: "However, you never did dispute your affiliation with
the church. I am sorry but I must ASSume any member of that church
follows the teachings and is therefore racist"
Just because someone is part of that group or affiliated with it
does not mean they share the same ideas. It does not matter if it is
just one person or a small number. I pity you, that you cannot
understand or can you?
Reverand Wright made himself a spectacle in front of
viewers and his followers. Then people should label him and only him.
You do not know what goes on behind the scenes. No one does. So if
you want to put a name on someone, an individual, than that is your
right. However, it is not fair to that person who you put a name too.
As for the question regarding the KKK, no I would not label you a racist. But I would not trust you in the slightest.
Oh look, I can humble myself.
Dear Oh Look I can Humble Myself,
I must admit you have won this one. A world that is coming to an
end, where affiliation with the KKK does not make you racist, where you
hold an affiliation with a radical group but expect people to
not attribute those beliefs systems to you. Both our presidential
candidates are idiots, the White House is a Monarchy. What more can we
ask for to get the second coming of Christ.
It doesn't take a lot of stupidity to irritate me, it takes a lot
of stupidity to sadden me. I am glad you are not voting. Creatures
(are you even a creature) are not worthy of the liberties afforded to
citizens in this country.
You are a hypocrite, saying that we should look only at what a
candidate can do for us in the future in one message, and in another
message, you shout, both are idiots, I am not wasting my time I have
seen enough. I am not voting for either. I am sure you would make
your forefathers proud. Of course, all that spilt blood so you could
have a voice doesn't matter to you does it, because you are so
egocentric all you can see is that you don't understand the world and
the way it is, so you pout, rather than make an attempt to educate
yourself by election time. (granted that's a lot to ask in a month).
The really ironic thing is that it is exactly people like you who
watch the debates and the content is so far over your head, all you
hear is a bunch of babbling. You give up in confusion and declare
America a wash. God will fix it all. That's what good Christians do
right, when there is no hope? Let GOD take over?
Maybe you can vote for GOD! Oh wait, good for you GOD is running this year his name is Obama.
What you do not understand, is that when a presidential candidate
follows the teachings of a man who preaches Black Liberation Theology
(Look It UP) for his ENTIRE adult life, is married in the church, has
his kids baptized in the church, he is saying to the world "I follow
the teachings of this THEOLOGY". That is how people PICK their
churches. YES, what I am afraid YOU don't understand (or do you) is
that by affiliation, you are attributed the teachings of the Church you
attend. I DO have the time to assess the person that will be leading
my country. Maybe you think it is worthless but I have 3 (THREE)
siblings that are United States Marines. My little baby sister will be
deploying for the second time to Iraq in January. I Do care about the
moral ethics of the person who is going to be negotiating with the
terrorists, and
megalomaniacs in the Middle East,
HELL YES. A persons Religious Affiliations matter greatly to how the
rest of the world perceives our future President. If they see him as
Muslim, that has repercussions, if they see him as Christian that has
repercussions, it all matters. It matters to someone somewhere.
http://tracidmartin.smugmug.com/photos/56681615_qiVPh-M.jpg
If you are a Mormon, you are called a Mormon. If you are a
catholic, it is assumed you believe in Jesus and Mary and God, and it
is assumed that you go to confession. If you are Jewish, it is assumed
that you believe that (you believe) you are one of the chosen ones. If
you are Muslim it is assumed that you do not eat pork, If you are a man
and you say I am getting married, it would be assumed that it is to a
woman unless you live in West Hollywood or San Fransisco. In which case
WHO KNOWS?
If you are in the KKK it is assumed that you are a white
supremacist. Tell me why on this earth would you (Not that you could)
but why would you be a KKK member if you were not racist? Are you
aware that the KKK is a Political Organization? It is not a religion.
You cannot join based on some love of God or other non-sense. It is
about white Christian men Oppressing Jews, Blacks, Catholics and any
other minorities that may get in their way. It is the Nazi of America.
You are sticking your head in the sand because you are
intellectually overwhelmed by the politics of today, you don't see a
solution so like you said America is Going Down.
With people like you here, we have a great start. I am a
volunteer for my political party. What do you do to help your
country? Whats that? Nothing? May I suggest you move to France.
From Troy:
I just enjoy watching the fireworks.
From Traci Martin
some people enjoy watching, an admirable hobby, some enjoy razzing, a
personal favorite of mine. And one thing is certain, anyone can be
anything they want in theory.
When people are not willing to verify the facts, I can be a doctor if I want
RICHARD.
Caution Conversation becomes really nonsensical here
I disagree that America is going down simply because M-theory does
not support that hypothesis. Furthermore, it has passed many tests of
internal
mathematical consistency, which many other attempts to combine quantum
mechanics and gravity failed. Unfortunately, until we can find a way to
mechanically observe higher dimensions (impossible with our current
level of technology) M-Theory has a very difficult time making
predictions which can be tested in a laboratory. Technologically, it
may never be possible for it to be "proven." whether or not America is
"Going Down" until that happens. Then again we have Obama so anything
is possible.
So with that,
I bid you good night
From Richard
Uh....they are doing that now, in the EU Traci. The CERN Hadron Super
collider is only 1/3 as powerful as a super conducting one would have
been, but when they build this in space (and they will...) we get to
see just what things really are... if we live.
One, single political party in the US is so hobbled by the press
and the other government entities that we don't really have a worry.
Besides, the worst thing I can think of is a return to MAD and someone
pushes the buttons on both sides. Then we get to see about this
Revelations stuff...first hand.
From Joe
Uh....don't hold your breath waiting, Richard. Even if the
energies that can be reached by CERN are sufficient to discover super symmetry (a
basic as-yet unproven string-theory concept), this result alone will
not establish that string theory (the basic building-block of M-Theory) is
correct. There are other competing theories which would still be
consistent with this result. On the other hand, it may
take orders of magnitude more energy than the CERN
Collider can produce to even get such results, so failure to discover super symmetry will not disprove M-Theory either. Taking all
things into consideration, I think it is quite reasonable for Traci to say "it
may never be possible for it to be proven."
Yes, "never" is a long time, but she said "may" never be possible for it to
be proven, so she still has an "out" if they do prove it.
And with that. My point remains, that we can be whomever we want, because so long as people choose to ignore the past of a person, we can be Astro-physicists Dr.s of Economics, Or just Plain Idiots.